Curse

4thVariety · Aug 26, 2009, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Is PvX destroying the game?
I don't know, are online game guides destroying games?

Certainly, a game is fun if you puzzle and experiment to find the right build and strategy. That dimension of the game is always shattered by a guide revealing all secrets. But destroyed? Maybe Tales of Monkey Island, but GW is more than knowing the right build.

PvX is made for people who are in the cutthroat business of "no screw-ups, no deviations, no experiments". The type of pugging scene that is all about using the one strategy that pugs deem to be the most appropriate. It does not have to be THE best strategy, though.

Due to the "I have to have the edge" beliefs of people, combined with a "must not share secrets" attitude, the PvX wiki usually lags behind. So my advice is to quit pugging groups whose leader insist on PvX perfection, and join those that talk a lot before the mission and allow arguments about the build details.

As Daesu said, the Spiritspammer with pet is a mean mean mean thing to bring along these days in PvE. PvX is just behind the curve. Ironically, if Daesu put it there himself today, he would not have trouble finding a group tomorrow.

DreamRunner · Aug 26, 2009, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Pvx builds are generally good but very few of them are what I would consider optimal builds. Meaning there are better buidls than these, especially if you take the specific areas into account.

Pvx is large, but it mostly hangs around the meta. People who complain about pvx are people who:
1. Think their build is pro and want to express it without thinking of sync of skills, and the execution of skill usage.
2. Cannot see why builds on pvx are generally good
3. Don't like to conform to a build they didn't create. I think some people feel like they want to have some resistance to social conformity when having builds. Builds are in some way, expressing individuality.

They're is nothing generally speaking wrong with pvx, but some people don't have the knowledge or intelligence to make a good build. I remember a person on guru who fell into category 1, 2 and 3 of the above, and said frenzy on a warrior is BAD in pvp.

But if you wanna try a new build, get your friends, guild and other intelligent people who are knowledgeable in using skills and sync. A lot of people dont put the time or energy to really think about skills and test them in a practically.

Longasc · Aug 26, 2009, 10:14 AM // 10:14

PvX does only slightly reinforce the trend that people will want you to play builds that they know as "working".

Do not even think for a second that you would be allowed to play any build that you want play in a group if the leader feels it is really bad. They will ask you to adjust it to the needs of the group, regardless if there is a website somewhere with a build collection or not.

It is also naive to think that in times of the internet that forums/wikis and all that full of advice for the "best" builds won't exist.

You will have to deal with their existence and should not fall into the trap of thinking the game would be so much better off without them at all.

Toxic OnyX · Aug 26, 2009, 10:17 AM // 10:17

tl;dr
seen this thread about 1000 times before answer is it helps some ppl and hinders others

if you want to play with the group then play a group build (hence pvx) if not then h/h it and play what you want

Short · Aug 26, 2009, 01:05 PM // 13:05

I giggled when I saw this thread title. PvX destroying the game? Lol... I haven't read the topic but do you by any chance run "original" builds?

Karate Jesus · Aug 26, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by fleshharvest

Also, most of the hero builds on PvX are atrocious.

^ that's pretty true. Just look at the team builds under heroes on PvX. Those are the only ones worth running there.

I think most of the people at PvX don't worry too much about hero builds (unless it's one of the -way team builds). We assume that most people are intelligent enough to build for their heroes based on their own build.

However....I still lol when I get into a PUG that is all casters and for some reason the leader demands on taking his SS Physical Support hero with barbs and MoP

Go idiots!

jaximus · Aug 26, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

i dont believe its so much destroying the game, as stunting it. people can now look builds up and instantly have the armor templates/weps/skills/attributes for a successful player. that part i find to be a useful resource. granted some of the theorycraft on pvx is pretty questionable being it wep mods or incriptions. conversely though, the bad part of pvx, as someone mentioned lies with the pinging of builds. great feature, its one of the best updates theyve done, but the issue is when you get a person that pings a build, and you can tell its from pvx from the skill order half of the time, so you dont really know if they understand the build and how it works or not. they have the setup, but its the player skill thats lacking. so many times ive seen players that dont understand how a build works. an example would be when hammer wars load a pvx build and crushing blow stuff before they are kd'd. a really good recent example was with the double ha weekend and the sway ranger garb going around. about half of the rangers i saw didnt execute the attack chain in the proper order, or continued to use skills if one was interrupted/diverted. pvx helps players that are looking for another way of doing something, or to see what other people have discovered, but hurts players that hear about pvx and load templates without understanding why things work how they do. a way to remedy that would be to increase the build usage portion, and describe the counters and what to do in certain cases, not just the usual 'standard anti-melee counters.'

Elephantaliste · Aug 26, 2009, 05:54 PM // 17:54

@ op.
Most played builds referenced on pvx are making the game lag more and more.
Knowing that you can say yes.

Jetdoc · Aug 26, 2009, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

Lol?

First of all you don't have to show your build.
Second of all...

...you can always show a PvX build and then switch to the build you were originally going to use right before you enter the mission/area.

It will then be the party leader's decision as to "just how much he wanted you to run that PvX build"...he'll have to decide whether to scrap the effort or to go ahead and try you out with your non-PvX build.

P.S. Yes, I know it's dishonest...but insanely amusing.

KZaske · Aug 26, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

PvX wiki is a tool. As with any tool, there are some people that can and do abuse it.
By "abuse" I mean group leaders that require the use of a specific build with no time allowed to players to review how it should be used, which abuses both the player and the build. Not all of the builds require specific armor/weapons, but most do and most of the time the armor/weapons required are very specific and often almost useless in general game play.
I prefer general purpose builds that allow me to have as many of the bases covered as I can. While they do not rate very high in DPS that is often not the intent of the build, the intent is to have something to offer in defeating every foe and the ability to survive or in the worse case come back and rez the group. But that is just me.

Mokeiro · Aug 26, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Short

I giggled when I saw this thread title. PvX destroying the game? Lol... I haven't read the topic but do you by any chance run "original" builds?

All "working great 5 of 5 OMFGAWESOMENESS" builds of PVX were "original" at some time.

Kumu Honua · Aug 27, 2009, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by fleshharvest

You might as well be.

Please explain this utter nonsense.

Running an empty bar would mean that I am dealing nothing but straight arrow damage to a single target.

That is retarded and seems to be the direct point of the OP. That people like you ruin the game because you believe that what I posted is not at all viable.

Please educate me why my build is so bad. Please inform me of what my build should be.

I'd love to know.

AtomicMew · Aug 27, 2009, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

Pvx is large, but it mostly hangs around the meta. People who complain about pvx are people who:
1. Think their build is pro and want to express it without thinking of sync of skills, and the execution of skill usage.
2. Cannot see why builds on pvx are generally good
3. Don't like to conform to a build they didn't create. I think some people feel like they want to have some resistance to social conformity when having builds. Builds are in some way, expressing individuality.

They're is nothing generally speaking wrong with pvx, but some people don't have the knowledge or intelligence to make a good build. I remember a person on guru who fell into category 1, 2 and 3 of the above, and said frenzy on a warrior is BAD in pvp.

But if you wanna try a new build, get your friends, guild and other intelligent people who are knowledgeable in using skills and sync. A lot of people dont put the time or energy to really think about skills and test them in a practically.

PvX has some meta stuff, but most of it is garbage borne from a circle jerk of retards thinking they are uniquely insightful.

Daesu is exactly right. As proof, I present:
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:E/any_Erf_Quaker
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Two_Man_Necroway

S_Serpent · Aug 27, 2009, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Nope it's not destroying the game.

And I play the game how I like to play the game. My alliance has always done it like that and we will not align us to this cookie cutter system. Many of us in the alliance have chars with +25 titles

But we also understand that for some things, like farming and all the most effective build are needed to get the best result = since time is money.

For the rest, just play how you wanna play.

I've solo'ed cof HM with only one hero on my monk, elementalist, ritualist and mesmer now for example!
And with the alliance we did several hm dungeons just as how saw fit to overcome the dungeon for not necessary skills slots we often just fill them as we please. Ok this is not super effective, but it sure is super fun since we all enjoy these runs so much more as friends.

bugallnot · Aug 27, 2009, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Overall im happy PvX exists, sure from time to time and especially in the hardest places in this game people are going to insist on you using this and that build in order to fill this and that role.. But it doesnt happen nearly as often as meeting people with unequipped and unchanged heroes, in other words they didnt even add an elite skill to their hero toolbars.. (that happens a lot)

I just came back to the game from beeing away for 1,5 years and a quick visit to PvX is enough to bring me up to speed. Couple of weeks from now i'll be running my own builds but uintill im back in the mindset PvX ones are a pleasure to play.

And lets remember, reality is most people wouldnt be able to come up with a solid build anyhow. Atleast now you can be confident that youre teammates will bring atleast a half decent build

Another importaint fact to remember is that the best hero build and the best human build can often be very diffrent things. Heroes excel at using some skills and suck at using others

bugallnot · Aug 27, 2009, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokeiro

All "working great 5 of 5 OMFGAWESOMENESS" builds of PVX were "original" at some time.

Nah, most of the "great" builds is stuff that came with patches and updates. Highly obvious stuff that recived a bit of community polish.

The unique builds are mostly found in the 4 out of 5 category.

harpharp · Aug 27, 2009, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Short

I giggled when I saw this thread title. PvX destroying the game? Lol... I haven't read the topic but do you by any chance run "original" builds?

to answer your question, yes with the exception of discordway and ua healer even those were modded to a certain extent, many of my builds are original

nothing special about it tho it involves using op skills like roj for example. As for its effectiveness, well i dont really think it might be the best build, but it was good enough to complete almost all of prop to nf endgame hm mish and the areas i bother to vq.

fleshharvest · Aug 27, 2009, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Please explain this utter nonsense.

Running an empty bar would mean that I am dealing nothing but straight arrow damage to a single target.

That is retarded and seems to be the direct point of the OP. That people like you ruin the game because you believe that what I posted is not at all viable.

Please educate me why my build is so bad. Please inform me of what my build should be.

I'd love to know.

So you opt for doing straight arrow damage [with the exception of volley] and wacky all over the place minimal damage.

The only thing retarded is that build. Its viable. Everything is viable in pve. Just not efficient or worthwhile. I ruin the game? LoL. I don't play with you.

You should know why. There's only 3 skills on that bar that are worth taking. FOMF, PI, and volley [volley is ok, not great]. What you should be running depends on the situation. The same build doesn't work everywhere, 100% of the time.

EDIT: Oh, and dshot. Dshot always makes me happy.
Also, there is this build, which basically is the same silly idea.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10393491

Kumu Honua · Aug 27, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by fleshharvest

So you opt for doing straight arrow damage [with the exception of volley] and wacky all over the place minimal damage.

Minimal?

The naga hits with his staff for ~25-47. Stoning for 105 (KD as well with weakness being tossed around). ~30 DPS for 60 second duration.

Assa is 25-70 damage. ~25 Dps with spike at full chain to 52. 15 second duration.

Signet of Spirits. 23 Damage per spirit. 69 damage per set of attacks. 32-36 Dps. 60 second duration.

Bloodsong. 18 damage per hit. 10-13 DPS. 110 duration.

Then there's the whole PI blowing up AE's instantly, and my measly 20DPS with volley, not to mention the rest of the heroes support in the form of painful bond, splinter and exploding minions and so on.

I'm doing 90 to 170 DPS with my bar. That's perfectly acceptable for a single person to bring to the table. Add to that splinter, painful bond, and other support skills, and 7 other group member's damage and it works just damn fine.

Quote:

The only thing retarded is that build.

So tell me. What's a better R build? What makes it so much better? Just because you can find it on pvx?

What's the non-retarded R build that I should be using. Please. Explain.

Quote:

Its viable. Everything is viable in pve. Just not efficient or worthwhile. I ruin the game? LoL. I don't play with you.

Right. As I said, running with an empty bar is viable in pve. What's an efficient build for me to use. I'm still waiting. Worthwhile? Not something you can quantify. It's worthwhile to me because I enjoy it.

Quote:

You should know why. There's only 3 skills on that bar that are worth taking. FOMF, PI, and volley [volley is ok, not great]. What you should be running depends on the situation. The same build doesn't work everywhere, 100% of the time.

EDIT: Oh, and dshot. Dshot always makes me happy.

Really? Doesn't work EVERYWHERE? No kidding. You can say the same about every damn bar in existence. Now THAT'S a retarded statement. I mean, I do prefer a BHA/Epidemic when doing slavers...

What makes any of the skills on my bar "Not worth taking"? Because you can't see the amusement in summoning 6 critters to fight for you? I find it fun. THAT is what matters. People who insist on pvx builds ruin fun. That's the point.

Pvx may not ruin the game to the magnitude that the OP states. It's a useful tool from time to time. What ruins the game is those people who insist on pvx builds only because they suck the fun right out of the game.

Edit: That build you linked is too spread out and cannot sustain the skills. Mine can. Nor do I have to deal with skills being down due to dead pet.

With only 30e initial investment and 2e skills after that, I can go full bore the entire fight and always have energy for every skill as soon as it recharges.

OggkctZaYIqkc5s4u41U5EY4jxFD
Expertise 11+1+1
Marksmanship 10+3
Channeling 10

Why don't you try out my build yourself. See how it works. I run with a 35 mana pool and 500 health.

Don't forget the painful bond and weakness support.

fleshharvest · Aug 27, 2009, 05:29 PM // 17:29

lol Calm down, kid. Go post your build in the ranger forum, see what they think. I'm not going to get this thread locked because you want to throw a shit fit about your "Über DPS" build. Play your crap build with your guild and stop trying to prove how "good" it is to someone on guru. If you have so much fun playing it, then play it and don't join pugs. I don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Minimal?
Really? Doesn't work EVERYWHERE? No kidding. You can say the same about every damn bar in existence. Now THAT'S a retarded statement. I mean, I do prefer a BHA/Epidemic when doing slavers...

lol. You agree with me and then say the point I made is retarded. Are you daft?